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This is the second part of Malaysian Digest's interview with Former MACC Director Akhbar Satar.
Click here for the first part.
The job requires a candidate to be high on integrity and dedication. Unfortunately, there are very few takers. This says a lot about our society that with 25 million people living in this country, we can't even produce 25 honest men to work in MACC. Malaysian Digest pose this question to former MACC director Akhbar.
Malaysian Digest: How is Malaysian corporate/white-collar crime situation different from most countries?
Akhbar Satar: I think corruption is the same everywhere. We learned from the British who created the system and the whole ‘I scratch your back you scratch mine back’. For businesses in Malaysia, fraud remains one of the most problematic issues in economic crime. 48% of Malaysian companies have been subject to economic crime during the past two years.
MD: Has any particular type of white-collar/corporate crime significantly been on the rise in recent times?
AS: Computer crimes are on the rise. There’s an African syndicate that has set up a hub, actually, a bank here (in Malaysia). What they do is they will email to people outside Malaysia telling them that they can get a loan of maximum US$2,000 and to get it they are required to pay an advanced for the application fee for ‘processing‘ which is US$100 or US$100. Of course, they’ll see no sign of the loan once they pay the fee. Imagine how many millions of people in the world could get conned by them.
Most of the people involved (in this syndicate) get student visas and they misuse their knowledge to set up websites for their operation. People from China and the US have called me to ask me to check on some of these companies. There was a case where a company wanted to buy scrap iron. They were told by the seller that they have to pay 50 percent in advance but once they pay they’ll never see the goods. The US blames us because most of these fake companies are based here.
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MD: Why do these syndicates choose Malaysia as a base to operate their scam?
AS: We are too open and we make it too easy for them. When you arrive at our airport at around 2:00am or 3:00am you’ll find that you can walk through the green lane and nobody will care to check your bags. When I went to Australia they had dogs in the airport that will sniff your bags especially if you’ve arrived from Malaysia because Malaysia is known to them as a drug transit. But when I arrived (in Australia) again from Michigan they don’t check my bags because they know US is not one of the suspected countries.
You can’t simply let anyone in. Over there (the West) they work because they love their country. We just work for our salary. We don’t love our country, we love ourselves (laughs). When they see litter in the street they will pick it up and throw it in the bin but here you see a guy driving a new Mercedes but he’s throwing rambutan peels out the window. We have this way of thinking because we have not been trained to take care of our country.
MD: Is it getting harder to detect corruption and white-collar crimes with all the advanced technologies available in this day age as far as detecting corrupt payment transactions is concerned?
AS: You have to be very well-trained and have to study a lot on complex crimes as well as constantly updating yourself with the latest and future trends in these crimes. You must know English well because we’re in the globalization era so you will need to interact with people from different countries.
Basic training is important but now we should go more on things like how to overcome syndicate corruption in counterfeit products and how to overcome procurement of corrupt payment involving billions. The criminals are getting smarter so we always have to be one step ahead of them. For example, a lot of people involved in corruption will use money changers to avoid being detected by Bank Negara. They also buy expensive watches (RM200,000 or RM300,000) for safekeeping. Buying expensive paintings is also getting more common these days.
According to a study by World Bank 2 to 4 percent of the economic growth involve corrupt payments. That means RM12 billion to RM13billion a year. But I suspect it’s more than that. We have to be careful or else our country will fall into kleptocracy where we are ruled by thieves. Just like what usually happens with nepotism.
MD: How do you feel about the resignation and rehiring of Datuk Paul Low of Transparency International Malaysia?
AS: He announced about his intention to quit earlier. I think it’s an internal matter. Maybe they asked him to come back because there are not many people that are qualified like him.
MD: We’ve all heard, if not experienced, the act of offering/giving kickbacks, favours or other 'gifts' to a prospective client in order to get a project. It has become a culture in many industries. These 'gifts' can come in many forms and can be subjective. When and what type of 'exchange' would be considered a crime?
AS: Even if it’s RM1 or RM2 it is an offence. For government servants there is a general order which is like an internal corporate policy where you have to state how much can you receive. Whatever you receive you have to inform your superior. If your superior okays it then you can take it (the gift/‘commission‘).
Government servants usually have a rule where if you receive more than RM200 you have to report to your superior, or something like that. The problem is when you get RM200 you report but if you get RM5,000 you don’t report because if you report, your superior will ask for his cut.
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MD: Is there a difference between questioning and interrogation?
AS: That’s a good question. In the US they don’t call it interrogating anymore; they call it interviewing. Before you get you record your statement you have to interview. The interview method uses more psychology and no intimidation. We have to know how to read a person to see whether he’s lying or telling the truth. We also use polygraph tests.
MD: Do the police and MACC use the same or different methods when it comes to ‘interviewing’?
AS: I think it’s more or less the same. ACA was bourn from the police force.
MD: How do you qualify to work for MACC? What educational and professional background do most MACC officers have?
AS: They have mixed backgrounds. The right person for the job is the one who has the nation’s interest in his mind. and not the power and money. It’s quite difficult to find someone sincere in Malaysia. I think there are only 25 people out of 25 million in Malaysia who are really sincere.
MD: Do MACC officers carry guns?
Some in the investigations department do when they are on duty.
MD: The ministers in Singapore are among, if not the most, highest earning in the world and, it’s believed that‘s why there are hardly any corruption in their government. Do you think by raising the salary of officers would help curb corruption?
AS: No. It will, but only be temporary. Once you are used to getting corrupt payments it becomes part of your flesh and blood and it‘s hard to stop. Let’s say today your salary is increased by RM1,000. For the first few months you’ll be okay because there’s RM1,000 extra for you but after few months later you’ll get new sports rims or change to a better car and it’s back to square one. You get this attitude after being accustomed to receiving that much money.
Last year the government increased the salary of a lot of government officers but corruption is still there. It’s an attitude problem and, number two, you must have enforcement. We have all kinds of laws and it’s a great law system we have but that don’t mean anything if there’s no enforcement. It’s a systemic versus individual thing. For example, the rules are quite tight in Singapore and the Singaporeans all follow their rules. But when they cross over to Johor Baharu they change (become the same as us Malaysians) meaning to say that people are the same. People are involved in corruption and bribery here not because we are very bad people and this doesn‘t mean Singaporean‘s are good people but I think it‘s because of the system we live by. Over there if you get caught smuggling cigarettes they will send you to jail for two or three months but here there’s still room for negotiation. The main problem is enforcement; we need strict and fair enforcement.
Today I’m talking about anti-corruption and policies but, I wouldn’t know, maybe tomorrow I may get involved in corruption because of the three ‘TA’s: harTA (assets), waniTA (women) and tahTA (title). That’s why people involved in corruption will analyze to see which are your weakness points and tempt you according to those weaknesses. I hope this doesn’t happen but how can we know what will happen tomorrow? We’ll never know until we’re faced with the situation. We’re all human. We can say all you want about politicians being corrupt but if maybe if we were the ones up there we would end up even worse because the temptation will always be there. We hope we won’t belong in this category. So we should never be arrogant by telling people I’ll never do this or never do that because we can change in the future in a split second.
MD: Offer of bribes can be very tempting. What can the government and industry governing bodies do to help curb the rampancy of this 'incentive-for-favour' culture?
AS: Intensify enforcement and integrity and you have to be fair. It’s not easy but that’s what we need to do.
MD: Do you think rewarding children for doing good can be a bad thing since it could, in some way, encourage bribery?
AS: I think this one is quite controversial. It depends on the individual. As muslims, why don’t we eat pork? Because our parents told us not to since we were young. If parents were to remind their children the same way about bribery then it can do the same thing.
When cases involve reputable and powerful people, especially from establishments that's suppose to conform to high standards of morality (eg: police, government, judicial, charitable organisations, religious organisations, NGOs, etc) does it in any way make them harder to investigate?
It’s up to you. If you want to improve your Corruption Perceptions Index you have to be fair. There’s no such thing as selective investigations and if you do the right thing people will respect you. As a head of an organization you yourself must not only be clean but also look clean. You also have to forgo all the extravagant privileges so that you prove and let people know that you’re clean.
MD: Let’s say I’m driving one day without my seatbelt on. The traffic cop asks me to pull over and instead of giving me a ticket, he asks for a bribe in which I complied. Would a photo, video footage or audio recording of the conversation that took place be sufficient enough evidence to convict the officer in question?
AS: You are required to have an independent witness to support you in the court proceeding. Photos, video footages and other audio recordings can be manipulated these days and it can be difficult to prove and the question of admissibility will arise in court. A video footage can aid in the investigation but it can be a bit difficult to prove in court unless the person who captured it comes forward. This would also involve a trial within a trial…
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MD: Tell us about your company Akhbar & Associates.
AS: Malaysia has a big problem. We’re not careful when it comes to hiring people so that’s why a lot end up hiring the wrong people. We do background checking on people and due diligent on companies to find out whether they’re legit. This will help companies from losing out because once you hire, say a 25-year old person, it will take 30 or more years before he retires. Since it’s not easy to sack him, your company will be suffering for 30 years.
To companies in Malaysia, a background check would usually only mean checking with the police to see if he has a criminal record. How about people who are involved in corruption and allegations? There are no records on these in MACC or the police department but if you had stolen chicken eggs then you’ll have a record. A thorough background check can help you find out if a person in question has swindled money or been sacked. Related News
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